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| Johngill |
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Bass Guitar
Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Essex
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| poor musicianship? interested to know on what do you base that statement? |
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| shootthebusstop |
Post subject: |
Rythym Guitar
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 486
Location: UK
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Poor vocals.I'm sorry but the Hollies never did bad vocals  . |
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I feel far from home and far from talented....
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Paula
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| Dennis |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 773
Location: Los Angeles
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| Hope2005 wrote: |
| I hate The Hollies version of 'If I Needed Someone' poor vocals and musicianship. I read that George Harrison remarked that it sounded like it was recorded by session musicians during a tea break. I do believe that John Lennon was never very keen on The Hollies as he felt their music was very leightweight, of course Graham Nash was present in Abbey Road when The Beatles performed 'All You Need Is Love' in 1967. |
It think it was a mistake for them to release it. They were writing very strong material at the time; there was no need for them put out a Beatles cover as a single A-side. It's interesting to hear, but it should have been left in the can and discovered years later as a long lost rejected track. I think it would be easier to live with in that scenario. It's hard to wrap around the thought of them releasing "If I Needed Someone" back then and not releasing "If It Wasn't for the Reason" in 1973. It should be noted that The Hollies' "If I Needed Someone" was not released at all in the US at the time, especially since The Beatles' original was getting radio play as an album track anyway.
As for The Beatles' reaction to The Hollies (not regarding "IINS", but overall), I think it was a case of professional jealousy. The Hollies' harmonies were incomparable. And do we need to point out The Hollies' excellence as musicians? |
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| Vrinda |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 667
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Quote: |
It think it was a mistake for them to release it. They were writing very strong material at the time; there was no need for them put out a Beatles cover as a single A-side. It's interesting to hear, but it should have been left in the can and discovered years later as a long lost rejected track. I think it would be easier to live with in that scenario. It's hard to wrap around the thought of them releasing "If I Needed Someone" back then and not releasing "If It Wasn't for the Reason" in 1973. It should be noted that The Hollies' "If I Needed Someone" was not released at all in the US at the time, especially since The Beatles' original was getting radio play as an album track anyway.
As for The Beatles' reaction to The Hollies (not regarding "IINS", but overall), I think it was a case of professional jealousy. The Hollies' harmonies were incomparable. And do we need to point out The Hollies' excellence as musicians? |
Dennis, I need to point out again that that whole comment on the Hollies sounding like session musicians was never uttered by George Harrison, any one of the Beatles, nor anyone associated with them. It was some publicist claiming to be working for them who said that. We don't even know the name of the person. There was no proof the Beatles ever released such a statement. There was no animosity between the Beatles and the Hollies, and George would have had the most to lose by panning the Hollies' version of the song. In fact, he told Tony he liked their version. |
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| Dennis |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 773
Location: Los Angeles
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| Vrinda wrote: |
| Quote: |
It think it was a mistake for them to release it. They were writing very strong material at the time; there was no need for them put out a Beatles cover as a single A-side. It's interesting to hear, but it should have been left in the can and discovered years later as a long lost rejected track. I think it would be easier to live with in that scenario. It's hard to wrap around the thought of them releasing "If I Needed Someone" back then and not releasing "If It Wasn't for the Reason" in 1973. It should be noted that The Hollies' "If I Needed Someone" was not released at all in the US at the time, especially since The Beatles' original was getting radio play as an album track anyway.
As for The Beatles' reaction to The Hollies (not regarding "IINS", but overall), I think it was a case of professional jealousy. The Hollies' harmonies were incomparable. And do we need to point out The Hollies' excellence as musicians? |
Dennis, I need to point out again that that whole comment on the Hollies sounding like session musicians was never uttered by George Harrison, any one of the Beatles, nor anyone associated with them. It was some publicist claiming to be working for them who said that. We don't even know the name of the person. There was no proof the Beatles ever released such a statement. There was no animosity between the Beatles and the Hollies, and George would have had the most to lose by panning the Hollies' version of the song. In fact, he told Tony he liked their version. |
Then George Harrison should have told the press, not just Tony. And the supposed Lennon comment? How did that come about? |
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| Dennis |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 773
Location: Los Angeles
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| shootthebusstop wrote: |
| Poor vocals.I'm sorry but the Hollies never did bad vocals . |
I think the only really poor aspect of it is the recording quality. It sounds almost like a demo, at least as originally released on the mono single. |
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| Bee |
Post subject: |
Banjo
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 47
Location: Northwest England
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| I can accept The Hollies version of "If I Needed Someone" I don't think they did it badly, but maybe it could have been left alone. I'm kind of in the middle on that one! |
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| Agneta |
Post subject: If I Needed Someone |
Rythym Guitar
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Sweden
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Out of curiosity, I bought a copy of the NME from December 17, 1965, with the headline "Hollies blast back at George", on the Swedish site "Tradera".
The headline of the article on page 3, written by Alan Smith, is "Hollie's Graham Nash blasts back at George."
"GEORGE HARRISON is probably the friendliest and most easy-going member of the Beatles. But something he said in the NME last week has brought him a blast of most UNfriendly criticism!- from another of Britain's top groups, the Hollies, who make the NME Chart at No. 28 with "IF I Needed Someone."
Said George in my feature "On Tour With The Beatles": "I think the Hollies' version of my song 'If I Needed Someone' is rubbish. they've spoilt it.
"The Hollies are all right musically, but the way they do their records they sound like session men who've just got together in a studio without ever seeing each other before."
Then comes Graham Nash's reaction to this. He says among other things that these comments disappoint and hurt the Hollies, and asks:
"If we have made such a disgusting mess of his brainchild song, will he give all the royalties from our record to charity?"
And he says: "One thing: I'm b___ sure I don't want 'If I Needed Someone' released in America as our next disc. 'Look Through Any Window' is our biggest seller over there at the moment, and we're naturally looking for a follow-up. Normally, this would be it. But not now. It's a matter of principle."
But he also says that he still likes the Beatles' music.
At the end, Alan Smith writes: The only thing I would say in George's defence is that after he'd said his piece, he said: "Better not use that!" Then he said: "Oh, go ahead. What the heck!"
I just thought I'd share this with you, since there seem to be different opinions of who really said what.
If someone would like to read the whole article, I could try to post it on My Back Pages.
Agneta |
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| shootthebusstop |
Post subject: Re: If I Needed Someone |
Rythym Guitar
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 486
Location: UK
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| Agneta wrote: |
Out of curiosity, I bought a copy of the NME from December 17, 1965, with the headline "Hollies blast back at George", on the Swedish site "Tradera".
The headline of the article on page 3, written by Alan Smith, is "Hollie's Graham Nash blasts back at George."
"GEORGE HARRISON is probably the friendliest and most easy-going member of the Beatles. But something he said in the NME last week has brought him a blast of most UNfriendly criticism!- from another of Britain's top groups, the Hollies, who make the NME Chart at No. 28 with "IF I Needed Someone."
Said George in my feature "On Tour With The Beatles": "I think the Hollies' version of my song 'If I Needed Someone' is rubbish. they've spoilt it.
"The Hollies are all right musically, but the way they do their records they sound like session men who've just got together in a studio without ever seeing each other before."
Then comes Graham Nash's reaction to this. He says among other things that these comments disappoint and hurt the Hollies, and asks:
"If we have made such a disgusting mess of his brainchild song, will he give all the royalties from our record to charity?"
And he says: "One thing: I'm b___ sure I don't want 'If I Needed Someone' released in America as our next disc. 'Look Through Any Window' is our biggest seller over there at the moment, and we're naturally looking for a follow-up. Normally, this would be it. But not now. It's a matter of principle."
But he also says that he still likes the Beatles' music.
At the end, Alan Smith writes: The only thing I would say in George's defence is that after he'd said his piece, he said: "Better not use that!" Then he said: "Oh, go ahead. What the heck!"
I just thought I'd share this with you, since there seem to be different opinions of who really said what.
If someone would like to read the whole article, I could try to post it on My Back Pages.
Agneta |
Thanks for this , it is really interesting. It doesn't sound like George at all and you can't believe everything you read. So who knows!!!!!! I think it was a spare of the moment, off the cuff comment. Maybe George was in a bad mood that day and regretted it later.Thanks again Agneta. |
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I feel far from home and far from talented....
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Paula
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| Vrinda |
Post subject: Re: If I Needed Someone |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 667
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| shootthebusstop wrote: |
| Agneta wrote: |
Out of curiosity, I bought a copy of the NME from December 17, 1965, with the headline "Hollies blast back at George", on the Swedish site "Tradera".
The headline of the article on page 3, written by Alan Smith, is "Hollie's Graham Nash blasts back at George."
"GEORGE HARRISON is probably the friendliest and most easy-going member of the Beatles. But something he said in the NME last week has brought him a blast of most UNfriendly criticism!- from another of Britain's top groups, the Hollies, who make the NME Chart at No. 28 with "IF I Needed Someone."
Said George in my feature "On Tour With The Beatles": "I think the Hollies' version of my song 'If I Needed Someone' is rubbish. they've spoilt it.
"The Hollies are all right musically, but the way they do their records they sound like session men who've just got together in a studio without ever seeing each other before."
Then comes Graham Nash's reaction to this. He says among other things that these comments disappoint and hurt the Hollies, and asks:
"If we have made such a disgusting mess of his brainchild song, will he give all the royalties from our record to charity?"
And he says: "One thing: I'm b___ sure I don't want 'If I Needed Someone' released in America as our next disc. 'Look Through Any Window' is our biggest seller over there at the moment, and we're naturally looking for a follow-up. Normally, this would be it. But not now. It's a matter of principle."
But he also says that he still likes the Beatles' music.
At the end, Alan Smith writes: The only thing I would say in George's defence is that after he'd said his piece, he said: "Better not use that!" Then he said: "Oh, go ahead. What the heck!"
I just thought I'd share this with you, since there seem to be different opinions of who really said what.
If someone would like to read the whole article, I could try to post it on My Back Pages.
Agneta |
Thanks for this , it is really interesting. It doesn't sound like George at all and you can't believe everything you read. So who knows!!!!!! I think it was a spare of the moment, off the cuff comment. Maybe George was in a bad mood that day and regretted it later.Thanks again Agneta. |
NME might have been trying to drum up sales of their magazine by sensationalizing the whole issue when, in reality, nothing that bad might have happened at all. It's how the media operates. |
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Vrinda
http://thehollies.proboards88.com
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| SpartyScott |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Gahanna, Ohio USA
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Whatever Harrison actually said to that journalist, it's pretty obvious that the Hollies were pretty upset by the remarks. As well they should have been, because not only are those quotes trashing that single, but is also professionally insulting the Hollies as a group, as the quote said "their records ... sound like session men who've just got together in a studio without ever seeing each other before." If that's not insulting, then what is? And that's definitely ugly considering the two groups worked for the same record company and in fact recorded their records in the same exact studio.
I think I recall Clarke saying something to the effect that Harrison's comments hurt George more than anyone, as the single stopped selling after the interview and so he lost out on his songwriter royalties. |
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| Vrinda |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 667
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Quote: |
| Whatever Harrison actually said to that journalist, it's pretty obvious that the Hollies were pretty upset by the remarks. |
If George never made those remarks, than he can't be blamed for them. Someone did, and fed it to the journalist. Whether or not Hollies believed he made those remarks or not has never been clarified. I don't believe George really made that comment. It would have been the dumbest thing he ever did, because it would kill his chances of getting any royalties. |
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Vrinda
http://thehollies.proboards88.com
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| Gee |
Post subject: |
Rythym Guitar
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 486
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For what it's worth my view re this......
Despite more Recent claims that it NEVER happened...(A mistake by a Beatles' Publicist...?) I understand...as Per Agnetha's posting.. that it actually DID...
First I understand what happened was George Harrison was shortly to go onstage in Glasgow, Scotland when he was collared by Smith of NME.....always Looking for a "Beatle Story...." (to ensure healthy paper sales...)
George remember was, back then, a rather serious "Quiet" young guy....and by his own later admission very much in "Awe" of John Lennon (who was always "Bad mouthing the opposition"....then sheepishly apologising later...often by offering them a Hit song !)
I suspect Smith may well have caught Harrison at a bad moment....maybe he was feeling a bit nervous prior to doing the show....?
(even today Sir Paul says HE still gets nervous....and he was at "The Brits" the other week !)
Remember too that back in 1965 George had NO experience of having his songs recorded by other Artists at that time too....which is probably very significant here
Paul, when asked by D.J. Brian Matthew if John & he had written "Wait" (1965) especially for Fellow liverpudlian singer Frankie Vaughan, who had just issued his cover version as a single, very cooly replied:
"Not specifically...but it's always nice when someone pays you the compliment of recording one of your songs..."
Paul was probably "Scoring points" over the naive young George here...by Being the famous "Seasoned Tunesmith" who was so USED to having his songs covered by other Artists....
that must have irritated the younger George ! (The competion within The Beatles was furious !)
Shortly after ,At a Press conference to announce his forthcoming marraige to Model Patti Boyd, Smith cheekily asked George IF The Hollies would be invited to Their wedding...to much Press Laughter...
An embarressed looking George , who had probably JUST realised he had really "Shot himself in the Foot" Royalty wise (- George was supposedly back then the "Tightest" Beatle...which they even jokingly "played up" about in the film "Help !").....replied to the effect of:
"Oh you mean regarding my comments over "If I Needed Someone"...yeah I wish you HADN'T said that...."
Messrs Lennon & McCartney may well have been having a quiet chuckle here....notice how they NEVER slagged off anyone's cover of their songs at all....(and there were some AWFUL ones too...) as it was always "Money in the bank"...PLUS it duly raises your Profile as a Songwriter....
Nevertheless John, Paul & George Martin MUST have noticed That The Hollies DID have a chart hit with "Only a George Song"....they all started taking Harrison more seriously as a songwriter thereafter - His classic song "Taxman" opens the following Beatle album "Revolver" - while Later Sir George Martin openly apologised to George for failing to spot his songwriting abilities from the beginning....
A big irony here is that "If I Needed Someone" owes it's guitar chord structure directly to The Byrds version of "The Bells of Rhymney" from their "Mr.Tambourine Man" album (1965) - Harrison later sent Jim (Roger) McGuinn a copy of "Rubber Soul" on which he wrote a personal message to him thanking Him & The Byrds for the inspiration....one of McGuinn's most favorite items in his collection... !
So the song was NOT entirely "Original" in it's construction anyway.... 
Likewise, from that album, The Byrds version of Dylan's "Mr.Tambourine Man" itself inspired Tony Hicks to begin a song that evolved into "Carrie Anne"...
Re The "Souless Sessionmen" dig....again a younger George shooting his mouth off...
This was probably because he saw The Hollies very "Workmanlike" approach to their craft...plus a certain Hollie liked to "Get the thing done...in time for a Last Beer before the (UK) Pubs closed...." - (at 10.30p.m. !)
To a very serious young George, in the next studio at Abbey Road, this might have seemed to be a VERY unartistic attitude indeed.....
(Remember The Beatles later did 102 takes of his superb "Not Guilty"...then left it OFF "The White Album" in 1968....!)
George was very WRONG to question The Hollies Professionalism as a band tho'...in truth Bobby Elliott was a MUCH stronger Drummer than Ringo (who was a fine Drummer of course) ....If George Harrison could play distinctive Guitar & Sitar....Tony Hicks could play an equally distinctive Guitar...and Banjo ! ("Hard Hard Year", "Look Through Any Window", "Clown", "Tell Me To My face" ,"So Lonely", "Stop Stop Stop", "I'm Alive" etc....)
Eric Haydock was easily Paul's equal on Bass guitar...indeed Haydock was a faster Bass player...
Clarkey was certainly Lennon's equal on Harmonica...indeed there was Much more strident harmonica on The Hollies 1963-1966 records than ever on any Beatles tracks...
In vocal terms BOTH bands were ultra distinctive of course....Clarke was easily AS powerful..as John....and more so than Paul ...as a lead vocalist. (some would argue Clarke had even greater lung power than Lennon....whose voice actually often "Cracked"....listen to his "gasp" as "Twist & Shout" ends...and the out-take of "Mr Moonlight" on the "Anthology"...this is however an aguable point)
Nash was a MUCH stronger High harmony singer than Paul...(Terry Sylvester later was too !).....
Both bands three part harmonies were ultra tight....compare The Beatles' "Tell Me Why" (1964)...and The Hollies' "Please Don't Feel Too Bad" (1964)...each band COULD easily have sung each other's song there !
- while in truth Ron Richards always put the Hollies vocals....their trademark... further up in the mix than George Martin normally did The Beatles...
So the young George's dig at The Hollies being "Souless Sessionmen" was very unfair re their musical abilities...and was an unprofessional thing to say
But it is possible that, back in 1965 seeing The Hollies then just have their FIRST UK Chart Topper with "I'm Alive"....and The Stones going from strength to strength with Jagger-Richards songs...maybe George was feeling The Beatles were now seriously being "Threatened" ?
John Lennon certainly was always worried about this....unlike Paul...it may seem crazy today...but back then several of The Beatles really felt the strain of being at the very top......they saw how successful The Dave Clark Five suddenly were...most notably in the USA...
and John Lennon had an acrimonious "Exchange" with Ray Davies of The Kinks at Blackpool
....where the inimitable Mr.D deftly rebuked Lennon and told him that HE wrote all The Kinks original songs....after Lennon had asked him backstage "Which of OUR songs do you cover...?" - Apparently Lennon glared at an amused Ray...then walked off in a huff...!
(which might explain the line: "I WON'T Say That "I Feel Fine" Like Everybody Else...." in "I'm Not Like Everybody Else"....???)
So Re George's "Souless Sessionmen" remark...perhaps seeing a very Methodical and Disciplined "Hollies Style" and Ron Richards much more "Regimental" approach than George Martin's....possibly got George's back up....tho' later he held NO such attitude of course...
George was DELIGHTED when Terry Sylvester....who once worked for George's brother....got the "Hollies job" in 1969...!
John Lennon and Graham Nash became friends later too...with Graham in the crowd of "Beatle Friends" singing along to "Hey Jude" on "The David Frost Show" in 1968....
...and of course later Paul & Linda loaned them their Moog for "Another Night" too...
Tony's son Paul Hicks became good friends with George & Dhanni Harrison...plus worked with Paul too later on...
So this whole thing was probably "Blown out of all proportion" by a Music Paper in truth...simply to sell copies of NME....a casual backstage"off the cuff" remark duly turned into a "Sensational blast at The Hollies..." for headline purposes...?
(maybe Allan Clarke had back then recently had the Last cup of tea ahead of George in Abbey Road's kitchen......much to George's annoyance..!) 
....All a part of young George's "Learning Curve".... 
The recording sadly DID put The Hollies "In The Beatles Shadow" temporarily...tho' with "I Can't let Go" (which Paul praised ) they emerged an even stronger and more confident outfit...
plus a young George learned to "Button his lip"...at the cost of some Royalties !
(John Lennon would also learn that in 1966...re a remark about "Jesus Christ..."...and Paul re taking drugs in 1969...!) |
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| holliesfan |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 519
Location: New Jersey, USA
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Geoff,
A wonderful overview if I may say so. You never cease to amaze me with your ready to share knowledge. I miss your presence on these boards. Please don't be a total stranger going forward. This website is truly much better with your historic input. |
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| Dennis |
Post subject: |
Lead Guitar
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 773
Location: Los Angeles
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| holliesfan wrote: |
Geoff,
A wonderful overview if I may say so. You never cease to amaze me with your ready to share knowledge. I miss your presence on these boards. Please don't be a total stranger going forward. This website is truly much better with your historic input. |
Fine, if one has the spare time to read them. The Harrison vs. Hollies story is tedious. The bottom line is The Hollies' version of "If I Needed Someone" WAS a mistake, as it charted poorly compared to their previous and following releases. This was a crucial time for the band, and for them to make such a poor decision as covering a Beatles tune for an A-side is very puzzling, even 40+ years later. |
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