The Hollies :: View topic - 6-CD Hollies Box released by EMI in May 2011

Let's look at the remaining unreleased Nash-era studio tracks that are not being used in the forthcoming 6-CD set:

Fortune Teller(early version with Don Rathbone,15 May 1963)
Cry Me a River(11 Dec.1963)
Party Line(13 July 1964)
It's Raining Teardrops(25 August 1964)
Cry Now(10 Nov.1964)
Now That You're Gone(22 Sept.1965)
Stay Away(22 Sept.1965)
Like Every Time Before(1 March 1966. This has been described as a demo)
Have You Ever Loved Somebody(first version ,1 March 1966)
Have You Ever Loved Somebody(second version, 25 March 1966)
Have You Ever Loved Somebody(third version, 20 June 1966)
Green Eyes(21 Feb. 1967)
You Know Me Babe(21 Feb.1967)
Step Inside(first version,3 Aprll 1967)
Ashes to Ashes(12 Sept. 1967)
You Were a Pretty Little Girl(26-27 March 1968)
Marrakesh Express(backing track)(2 April 1968)
Survival of The Fittest(12-16 August 1968)

There are also later BBC sessions that were taped at Abbey Road Studios and where the group merely delivered tape copies to the BBC.

When Record Collector magazine did a series of articles about The Hollies many years ago(spread across 3 issues), they presented a sessionography.

Record Collector magazine stated that the songs "Party Line" & "It's Raining Teardrops", "were abandoned when early takes proved uncomfortable",so those tracks obviously aren't suitable for release.

EMI executives have always opposed the release of the "Marrakesh Express" backing track.

Apparently, "You Were a Pretty Little Girl" was an unfinished song idea, because Tony Hicks once stated that he didn't get encouragement from "the other fellas" to develope it further.

As for "Green Eyes" & "You Know Me Babe", it is unlikely that the recordings exist. Certainly, at the time of the Record Collector articles, it couldn't be confimed that the recordings were made, existed, or were actually by The Hollies.

As for "Stay Away" & "Now That You're Gone"(recorded at the same sessions as "I Can't Get Nowhere with You") it was initially believed(at the time of "30th Anniversary Collection" in 1993) that these tracks had been recorded at Bell Studios in New York(the real Bell Studios tracks are the acetate-derived tracks which debut on "The Long Road Home" box set). As it was discovered "I Can't Get Nowhere With You", "Stay Away" & "Now That You're Gone" were recorded at Roulette Studios in New York. I would think that if "Stay Away" & "Now That You're Gone" existed(and were in useable condition), then they would have been included in "30th Anniversary Collection"

I would assume that if EMI someday issues expanded/remastered editions of the 1960's albums, then they'll look into what few remaining useable unreleased tracks that they've got.

As for myself, I would have wanted to hear the Nash-era version of "Survival of The Fittest". It is obviously mainly a Nash-written song, but the only released version is a later re-recording with Terry Sylvester.

Rythym Guitar Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 486

Re the unissued Sixties songs...

Apparently EMI can't find 'Cry Me A River' - no tape of it appears to exist in The Hollies archive (!!)

Other songs are currently described as 'Unusable' (this apparently applies to those Rickfors era unissued songs as well)

EMI told me a few years back that 'Marrakesh Express' is merely an unrecognisable incomplete backing track MINUS any 'Guide vocal'
(we can only assume that is correct....as if there WAS anything usable EMI would most likely have put it out....)

Bobby once said in an interview with an Aussie Hollies fanzine that Graham "possibly" had done a 'Guide vocal'....which may have been nothing more than just him just singing it to THEM (!) - over time this may have become 'Graham DID a Guide vocal'... in some people's view...which is NOT what Bobby said in the original interview (I have a copy of that mag)

- we can only wait & see....but so far it seems it is just an unrecognisable backing track... Crying or Very sad

I understand that it was Bobby Elliott who came up with the title 'Survival of The Fittest' and it was written in a hotel room in Sweden by Clarke, Hicks, & Nash together in 1968....with Tony using his Acoustic guitar - it is re the fact that they all by then knew that Graham would soon be off on his way....thus it would then be a case for both Graham & The Hollies of : 'Survival'...of the Fittest !

The lyrics probably do reflect Graham (as in his song 'Clown' earlier) having to turn on a 'Automatic smile & perform happily' while feeling frustrated and unhappy at his role - tho' put in the song as a female 'performer on a stage' - 'Give her a hand cos she gave a good show, her makeup was right for the occasion...' / 'she did what she had to do, she said what she had to say, she played her part to perfection....'/ 'what a good show that she gave....Happy to go on the stage...was she to know it would change...can she go on feeling strange'

and tellingly: 'she's so empty inside...lies to herself and the public' ...etc

- ironic that Terry Sylvester's 'Mr. Heartbreaker' (1973) later reflects similar sentiments...

Nash was by then feeling something of a 'prisoner' of HIS own earlier pop success & pop star image ' (not so much a dig at his band - or at any of his bandmates personally - as more at his own frustrating situation by 1968) hence; 'Public acclaim not the same such a shame...' (I believe this refers more to the 'Public acclaim' no longer being enough to satisy the artist on a personal level...rather than say the public acclaim actually 'tailing off'...which in 1968 for The Hollies it certainly was not at all)

Cat Stevens does likewise in his song 'Pop Star' on 'Mona Bone Jakon' in 1970....which looks back at his own 'Pop Star' period of 1966-1968

I believe Bobby was attempting to get Clarke, Hicks, & Nash to write together as a team one last time....

I understand Graham Nash did sing on the August 1968 first version...however at least at the moment it is - you guessed it : 'unusable' Confused

UNISSUED SONGS: Sixties & Seventies :

One thing to bear in mind....The Hollies often 'sang a song through' (not always tho' !) - so...as with, say ;'Schoolgirl', 'Sign of The Times' & 'Samuel' - when they say 'unusable' it might be in terms of incomplete instrumentation, Production, & final mixing terms

We can only hope this is the case re SOME of these tracks...in which case possibly some MIGHT later be 'finished off' for possible use....but remember they may not be 'useable' at all so we can only wait and see.

It would seem that in using the word "Complete" in the title of this 6-CD set, that EMI have burned a bridge behind them, making a permanent decision not to release any further vault material from this era. After all, if they did release any further material(in the future), fans might say, "Hey, you guys said that the 6-CD set was "complete"!"
But I would think that budgetary restrictions(for this budget-priced 6-CD set) dictated that EMI would only use vault material if it could be found via existing mixes. The remaining vault tracks(where they exist) can only be obtained by mixing down from 4-track tapes.
I should also note, that with the possible exception of the 3 songs exclusive to the E.P.'s, that stereo mixes exist for all of the other 1963-68 recordings. The decision to use mono versions of many tracks in the 6-CD set is certain to produce controversy.

Rythym Guitar Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 486

Besides those three EP Tracks in mono....I'm Not sure if ' Zip A Dee Do Dah' actually exists in true stereo (!) - it's still in mono on this latest set so I understand (or maybe in a 'fake stereo' mix - certainly there is no instrument or vocal seperation on it) , so if a true stereo master is held or a proper stereo mix could be prepared EMI apparently haven't bothered to use it this time....

The shorter single edit of '(Ain't That) Just Like Me' with Tony's guitar solos chopped short on Ron Richards instructions appears to be in a mono mix only too....it's the full length version that is in stereo - again on this set it looks likely to be in mono. Whether they could produce a stereo mix of the shorter original 1963 single version remains to be seen....but so far it has never appeared in true stereo in the edited single version.

The EMI version of 'She Said Yeah' (Rec 10 November 1964) first appeared in mono on 'Long Road Home' box set, and is likely to be in mono again on this latest set.

The alternative 'Bossa Nova' style version of 'We're Through' (1964) has so far only ever appeared in a mono mix as well....and a few of the other foreign language tracks such as 'Look through Any Window', and shortly no doubt also 'You Know He Did', 'Stewball' etc likewise...

The Bell Studios, New York recordings of 27 April 1965 - 'So Lonely' (version one), 'Bring Back Your Love To Me' & 'Listen Here To Me' were all in mono on 'Long Road Home' and are likely to be so again on the new set - the original masters were lost long ago and these versions are taken from Bobby Elliott's own acetate.

MONO v STEREO
it's always a tricky argument as EMI are to an extent on a 'Hiding to nothing' re the old Mono v Stereo argument

the choices are:
A) Put everything out in Stereo - some are delighted...but others then moan like mad re that early cheaper stereo sound saying: 'it sounds awful, a totally false sound - MONO was how the band intended them to be....' etc (as with The Beatles recordings of this era - tho' with that band EMI put out TWO sets in each format - the Mono set, on which Tony's son Paul Hicks worked, being the more expensive !)

B) Put the poorer stereo tracks out in Mono - some purists are happy....but others then say: 'Why not use stereo throughout ...?'

C) Re-mix them into a better sounding stereo (as per that 1963-1993 USA set)...some are really pleased...others then go ballistic re the old: 'you're tampering with the past' argument etc...

so whatever EMI do....it seems very likely that at least some people will never like it...!

EMI have at least 'centralised' the vocals on say; 'We're Through', 'I'm Alive' & 'Very Last Day' and got the better stereo mix of 'Look Through Any Window' sounding a fair bit better now (it had an odd 'grating noise' to the vocals on it years ago...)

I would like to see them improve the better stereo mix of 'I Can't Let Go' (that does NOT 'go to mono' for 5 seconds)...at the moment it sounds rough, but COULD be polished up...if studio time were given.

'Bus Stop' from that perhaps unfairly much maligned USA 1963-1993 CD set has a much better overall stereo sound...despite a distortion to the Bass guitar intro....tho' again it could be made to sound fine with a bit of studio time....and money...spent on it.

it's a very awkward issue....studio time costs are tremendous these days, and of course you have to be careful not to upset the band members themselves ....!
(I think at least two members were none to happy re that USA set)

A PROPER extensive Re-vamp of the Hollies sixties back catalogue (as has been done for The Beatles) is of course really what is required...to improve the stereo mixes where possible (Notably those three early albums and the later 'Evolution') , plus finish off things such as the Stereo 'Like Everytime Before'....correct the odd instrument imbalances here and there such as on the stereo 'All The World is Love' (re the Lead and backup guitars) - while 'Evolution' needs a decent sonic overall (but then so does The Beatles 'Help !')

Look at how they upgraded The Beatles 'Yellow Submarine' Songtrack album tracks....how much clearer and sharper they then sounded...not really 're-writing history' by any altering of the music itself, simply improving the quality of the sound & the mix.

Such things possibly may well occur over time.....but at the moment in these 'recession hit' times I guess we must be glad to get such a comprehensive Hollies collection .....while no doubt in the future there will be more Hollies sixties compilations, and maybe then we might see anything that could possibly be 'finished off' put out as a tempt for Hollies collectors ....(?)

While I have no doubts in the future we will see further sonic overhauls of these tracks....thus requiring devoted 'Hollies people' to splash out buying everything AGAIN ....! (this seems to be happening with most 'Classic Artists' work these days....these 'Deluxe Editions' of albums surfacing left, right & centre...)

The point re 'Complete' is a good question ....well I have Nick Drake's original 'Fruit Tree' box set...that's called 'Complete' - but it wasn't - and that hasn't prevented additional tracks later being issued...when later 'Discovered' and 'Finished off'....

....so hopefully we might yet see more future Hollies 'Rarities' - especially if they are wanting to push a future compilation..... (?)

A stereo "Like Every Time Before" with the lead guitar is not possible. The lead guitar was played live during mixdown of the mono mix. Ron Furmanek gave us a stereo mix(on "30th Anniversary Collection"), but with no lead guitar....not unlike Shel Talmy's 21st century stereo remix of The Who's "My Generation"....also with no lead guitar.
Also, as for Nick Drake's "Fruit Tree" box originally being released without some vault tracks that were later released, the subsequently discovered selections were not known(by the record company) to exist at the time that "Fruit Tree" was originally compiled.
As for whatever unreleased tracks are being omitted from the forthcoming Hollies 6-CD set, EMI does know which ones are still in their vaults, and they are knowingly omitting them. In EMI's view, a song still requiring mixdown is "unfinished".
Let's remember that back in the 1980's, the only unreleased Beatles' songs considered(by EMI) to be finished were "Leave My Kitten Alone", "One After 909"(1963 version), "If You've Got Trouble" & "That Means a Lot".

EMI's 4-CD box sets by Manfred Mann and Gerry & The Pacemakers included sessionographies, which openly revealed which unreleased songs don't exist anymore. Those songs are noted as "No Tape". I wonder if there will be a sessionography with the Hollies 6-CD set.

Rythym Guitar Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 486

Re the unissued songs....Bear in mind that it's not just a case of EMI or any Record Company simply 'not being bothered'....there are SO MANY other issues that can be involved on a general point ...everything from perhaps Licensing agreements (in the case of 'Live recordings' etc) , Budget limitations, possible Legal minefields to negotiate....songwriters & publishers angles can apply too...and in some cases who currently 'holds the rights' etc...

In The Hollies case I believe 'The Hollies Limited' at least hold almost everything the band have recorded.

A further key issue here is also keeping the Artist(s) happy ....keeping them 'onside'...!

When I asked Bobby Elliott re 'I Can't Get Nowhere With You' some years back he described it as 'probably unfinished' - now to us it sounds pretty 'complete'...but To Bobby, Tony, etc....it might be incomplete in terms (then) of either the final mixing & Production...or simply that they always intended to go back and do a 'proper' later maybe more 'polished' take which for whatever reason then never happened...

I have been advised that The Hollies 'workmanlike' approach (Not any term of derision there - as it's served them well & probably kept the band going where many others fell apart over the years)...was that after a few run throughs a song either began 'coming together'...or not....and if it didn't after say half a dozen attempts they started to question if the thing was right for them or not...? Confused

The band was so professional that they could nail a song very quickly compared to some fellow artists (no names !!) - Per Bernie Calvert 'Bus Stop' was kicked into shape in a day (Likewise The Beatles & The Beach Boys - early on at least - were fast workers too) - thus if they found they were having problems with a song they would 'can it' and maybe go back later (songs like: 'Yes I Will', & much later 'Is it True ?' & 'I Don't Understand You' were such songs they duly 're-visited' tho' ultimately the latter two were so far left unissued)

Back in the sixties they were all so incredibly busy....doing shows on TV, Radio sessions, Concert package tours, interviews for the Pop media, recording Commercial jingles , etc that they had to work really fast in the studio as most bands then did - you might get something like just 48 hours (for The Beatles 'Please Please Me' album) or maybe a couple of days to do an entire album....even later bands like Cream also faced this scenario re albums like 'Disraeli Gears' (1967) while The Moody Blues recorded 'Days of Future Passed' (1967) in just a week...

Thus The Hollies may well have discarded songs such as 'Party Line', 'It's Raining Teardrops', 'Cry Now' etc if either they were not happy with them for whatever reason, or if they felt the songs were not 'coming together' and so they quickly moved on to a song which did 'come together' much faster...(for example compare the two notably differing versions of 'So Lonely' - look at the transformation from first - then - unissued Bell Studios take to the finally used album track & 'B' side....you can clearly see why they never used the original version)

Allan Clarke has spoken of how they came to instinctively 'know' when a song was right for them - Ron Richards & ace demo hunter Tony Hicks (who found 'Just One Look', 'I Can't Let Go' & of course later 'He Ain't Heavy' when doing the rounds of the publishers) were sharp at getting them the right outside material back then....and Bernie Calvert has said how with 'Bus Stop', 'He Ain't Heavy...' and 'The Air That I Breathe' they all 'knew' they were onto something special even as they were recording the songs.

The Hollies apparently passed on 'A Must To Avoid' (1965) ...and possibly even Graham Gouldman's 'No Milk Today' (1966) both of which Herman then had success with..they had 'first refusal' on many top songwriters efforts during this mid sixties period.

Allan Clarke has said how they would quickly reel off the 'A' side for Ron (to keep him happy) ...then actually spend even more time on those self penned 'B' sides that were their own pride & joy....likewise their album tracks of course.

It's noticeable they used most of their own songs....not always on their first recording tho' ('Have You Ever Loved Somebody' they had a good few stabs at - initially with Eric Haydock in 1966 - while helping The Everlys do their version & giving a demo to both John McNally for The Searchers & to Ex-Searcher Chris Curtis for the Paul & Barry Ryan hit versions, before finally getting their own 'Evolution' track arrangement right in 1967 - they first attempted 'Like Everytime Before' back in 1966 as well)

from 1967 onwards the unissued songs tend to be either unfinished ideas (Tony's song 'Prettly Little Girl') , songs not everyone was keen on ("Marrakesh Express') , or maybe the odd cover ('Schoolgirl') when they were more interested in promoting their own works....

Even later in the seventies they might leave a song that was simply not 'coming together'....and move on to something that WOULD DO...

remember that when we clamour for what we obviously hope for as 'an unissued gem'....THEY will more likely see it as: 'oh that old number we were never happy with...' and EMI (or any artists' recording company) have to bear that in mind when looking at the back catalogue.

I have enquired over many unissued songs over the years....bear in mind there can also be other reasons a song is deemed 'unsuitable' for release besides artistic ones: some may have had technical faults like a dodgy master tape, or notable 'drop out' on a tape that can't at present be mixed out ("Magic Woman Touch" single version has that problem) , or perhaps a microphone failed during a take & no later take exists, or maybe even a mistake by a band member in the performance that can't be hidden....and no further take was then made....and there could even be personal reasons an artist might not want a song issued.

The Beatles 'Anthology' album showed John Lennon 'going wrong' lyrically - on his own lyrics !!- with quite hilarious results (i.e. on 'This Boy')

So our List of 'unissued gems' we are all itching to hear...might be a considerable disappointment - tho' most Hollies 'rejected takes' sound better than some bands official releases in my view...! Laughing

finally The Hollies own artistic reputation factor has to be considered.....

Hopefully we will see more unissued tracks emerge in the future, if they can be persuaded to 'finish off' anything that possibly can be utilised (i.e. as with 'Schoolgirl', 'Sign of the Times', 'Samuel')

I would hope at least the "Nash version" of 'Survival of The Fittest' (cut 12-16 August 1968) and maybe the "Sylvester version" of 'Wings' (9-13 March 1970) , the band's version of 'Born To Run' (15 March 1975) , and perhaps songs such as: 'Is It True ?' ( 1-2 March 1977, and 2 March 1979) , 'I Don't Understand You' (21 April, then 18-19 May, and again 18 June 1981) , 'Stormy Waters' (No harmonies version - 14-15 December 1978) and 'Don't Close Your Eyes' (14 January 1984- with Nash) etc might yet see 'official' light of day in the future...

Undoubtedly, "The Hollies own artistic reputation factor"(as Gee describes it), is the reason why Poison Ivy"(Take 9) and the alternate "Searchin' " won't be included in the forthcoming 6-CD set. "Poison Ivy"(Take 9) ends with a horrificly bad bass note from Eric Haydock, and the alternate "Searchin' "(from the UK Compacts For Pleasure CD) has Allan harshly growling the lead vocal, and Graham making a lyrics mistake during the middle section.