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Dennis |
Post subject: Personnel changes in Hollies and other bands |
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I thought I'd continue this topic, started in the Words & Music section. Personnel changes are expected of all groups with any longevity. It's the MUSIC that is the important thing, the SONGS themselves. I think we get too wrapped up in the "rock star" mentality when we can't accept new members in bands. It is difficult enough for band members to get along for longer than one or two albums, let alone a decade or more. It is natural for new musicians to come in to a band. In the case of The Hollies, Graham Nash's leaving in 1968 was a major event, but The Hollies continued on with Terry Sylvester and made their most durable music after Nash's exit. Then Mikael Rickfors replaced Allan Clarke, for an even more dramatic change, but the QUALITY of their music didn't change one iota. A new member can breathe new life into a band, and can turn out to be the best thing to happen FOR THE SAKE OF THE MUSIC, which to my mind is the whole point. |
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DistantLight |
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A new member can breathe new life into a band, and can turn out to be the best thing to happen FOR THE SAKE OF THE MUSIC, which to my mind is the whole point. |
Of course that's right. A new member "can" breathe new life into a band and that's why very few Hollies fans complain about Terry Sylvester or Mikael Rickfors because they've done exactly that. They changed the sound and they've added their personality to it! They wrote songs and recorded albums and so we have recorded music that we can look back on where they have participated and hear what important part they have played. We have a live album with Terry where he proved that he could replace Nash very well and also add something new to the sound. And that's the difference to all the members that came after Terry and Bernie left. Those few singles that the Hollies have recorded after "What Goes Around" don't show much personality of the replacements. It's all about Allan, Tony and Bobby - noone cares about the others. They were just there - totally faceless. After Bernie has left I haven't heard one interesting bass line or one outstanding harmony vocal. So for the studio recordings they haven't added anything in my opinion, the only things that have changed is that Terry's and Bernie's contributions are missing.
With Carl Wayne they have recorded one new song - the opinions about that one are very differing as we know but with the vocals performance even I can't argue. So he is the first new member that brought something new to the band... on one song. I'm not counting the live shows because I've never been at one and have only heard some live songs with him on CD.
So now they record a new album and maybe we can then say that the new members (Peter Howarth and Steve Lauri) have breathed new life into the band. But even if the album turns out to be good, if they don't write anything I can't place them for me next to past members such as Terry and Mikael who contributed much more and important things. It's an easy job to let others write the music for you and then just go into the studio and record them and that's what I think they'll do. From what I've read there isn't supposed to be one selfwritten song on the album and that shows me that they've chosen the easiest way to present the new members on a record. |
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peterchecksfield |
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I'm reposting this from another thread...but IS it a good thing for 'The Hollies' to continue indefinately like 'The Drifters' (as they probably will)?
chig wrote:
I think what makes The Hollies different to everyone else you've mentioned is that they have never split up - there has always been The Hollies and they have just evolved over the years. So in my eyes I can't see why they aren't The Hollies now any more than any other line-up over the past 40 plus years.
Everyone has their own personal favourite phase. I'm very optimistic about this line-up, I'd rather have them still touring than not. Judging by the audiences on the recent tour there are a lot of people thinking the same.
Allan had to retire as his voice had sadly gone and Carl tragically died - neither was avoidable and if Bobby and Tony still have the desire to go on then good luck to them.
Some very good points here. I think in some ways it would've been preferable for Bobby & Tony to give their group a new name after Allan left, though I can understand why they wouldn't want to!
I suspect 'The Hollies' will continue in one form or another long after even Bobby & Tony have gone, just as groups like 'The Drifters' do. This I think will weaken their legacy in the long run, unlike groups like The Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin who I couldn't imagine ever continueing without their key members...
I'm not so sure that I want to go & see a Clarke-less Hollies in concert, as Allan's voice & charisma was what made the group (I can't help thinking that I'd be seeing a good tribute band rather than the genuine article!). But as I've said, I wish the guys the best luck in the world for 2006, & hope the new material is a big success.
Peter |
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Dennis |
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I respectfully disagree about Clarke being the only Hollie that really mattered, which is what I read into the last post. As a fan who saw the Hollies with the Rickfors lineup first, to me THAT was the lineup to compare the others to. The trouble with the band when Clarke was fronting them was that he dominated TOO much. EVERY lead vocal was done by him on stage. It gets a little tedious when spread out for an entire concert when only one singer is heard. The same can be said about albums, which is why I like the '72-'74 LPs, because of the variety of lead vocals. I prefer bands that have at least two, preferably three members who sing lead, such as The Beatles, Badfinger, Bee Gees, Big Star, and of course the Rickfors lineup of The Hollies. It's just more interesting musically. Plus Clarke mainly just sang and didn't play an instrument (except for the guitar for "Long Cool Woman" and the harmonica for "He Ain't Heavy") so it limited their on-stage sound. Rickfors, on the other hand, played 5 different instruments plus sang lead and/or harmony vocals. This is why I compare the two and prefer the 1972 lineup. I am looking forward to hearing the band as it exists today (I am resisting temptation to hear any preview, so the album will be totally fresh to my ears) and will be open-minded about the music, whether they wrote the songs or not. (It's unrealistic to think we would get an entire album composed by Tony Hicks, even if he has always been the heart of The Hollies). |
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hollies |
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This debate can go on and on and has been discussed previously in other threads.
That is why I said that everyone has a favourite, whether it be the line up or a particular song and they are quite entitled to their view. No one person is right or wrong in their views. It is their opinion.
Again, I have said this before, that with each "Evolution" of the band, new favouites are made and perhaps some are lost. That is the way of the world.
Of course it is the music that is important but each member is too. The Hollies have always been a five or six piece band (and sometimes more on stage) and each one of them, over the years, has contributed to the overall history of the band. This is true on records and live on stage.
I like and watch Ice Hockey and my favourite team is the Nottingham Panthers. Over the years we have had some great players making up fantastic teams. However, at the end of every season without fail, some of the players go on to other clubs to play and we get new ones come in. There are even some that retire through injury through no fault of their own. But the whole point of this is that the team is still The Nottingham Panthers, the team that I love to follow. The game is never quite the same because there are diffent people on the ice but the excitement and pleasure I get from them is the same at every match, win lose or draw. They are MY team.
And so are The Hollies.
I have seen many changes over the years to this team of musicians too, but, each line has never failed to excite me.
The important thing is, they have never stopped working since those early days. They have not had long breaks for 10 years or so and made a comeback.
When there are new things about, I am filled with anticipation, like I am before a hockey match, and look forward to seeing and hearing them.
Yes, I have heard the new album, and I think it is fantastic. It is what The Hollies sound like now, in 2005/2006, and boy, do they sound good.
This new "Evolution" of the band has put together musically and vocally some great songs and what does it matter if none of the band have written them. The band have interpreted each song in the way that they feel about them and given them the life and vitality that they deserve.
If I want to hear The Hollies with the Allan Clarke or the Mikael Rickfors sound, the Nash or Sylvester sound I play a record from that period and relive the times.
Isn't it just fantastic though, that despite all of the personell changes and the passing of so many years, The Hollies, as a band, are still with us and continue to perform at the highest standard.
That to me is the best of all worlds. I can listen to past memories with my records and see them now, as they are in the present and, I hope, for a long time in the furure.
I have favourite songs from each of the line-ups but have to say my favourite Album at the moment is........."Staying Power". |
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_________________ Best wishes, Rob
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peterchecksfield |
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What would excite you all the most; (a) that the current line-up are recording a new album, or (b) that Allan Clarke was back in the studio cutting a solo album? Sadly the latter isn't true (unless someone knows different!), but I know which I'd prefer...
Allan's voice was/is as distinctive as Jagger, Plant, Lennon & all the other great vocalists. Just try to imagine all 'the hits' performed in exactly the same way - but with Peter Noone or Billy J. Kramer singing Allan's parts. Brilliant as Tony & Bobby are, it was Allan's voice & image that was largely responsible for selling these records, not the guitar or drum parts.
'The Animals' now consist of drummer John Steel as the only original member, & I'm sure that at least 95% of the original group's fans would much rather go to see an Eric Burdon solo concert. Sadly Hollies fans don't have the choice of seeing Allan doing solo concerts, but 'The Animals' are little more than a tribute act now, just as 'The Hollies' are. It doesn't really matter if they make good new recordings as far as live concerts go, as they're still trading on the past when on the road.
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hollies |
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Simple - The current line up.
I have liked and appreciated all of the line ups so far and see no reason now for that to change.
If you don't like it, why do you spend so much time supposedly being a fan of a "tribute band" and wasting your time on this forum.
Put your records on and enjoy yourself.
I will too, with the new album as well as the previous ones.
You don't have to like the current Hollies, that is your choice, but please stop going on about it on this forum.
I for one am fed up with it as are many others who tend not to be so set in the past.
Yes the past was fantastic. But so is the present and the future too.
Every now and again this subject is aired by people who say they are fans of the band but can't accept that the band should be allowed to continue following the retirement of Allan Clarke.
Yes he did have a fantastic voice and I loved it as much as anyone. But I also accept that fact that he had the right to retire if he wanted and that is what HE did, not The Hollies.
It was his choice, not the other members of the band, just as it was when Graham left.
Please accept that there are those fans who do want there to be a future for this band as well as the members of the band too. That is their choice. |
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_________________ Best wishes, Rob
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DistantLight |
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Quote: |
What would excite you all the most; (a) that the current line-up are recording a new album, or (b) that Allan Clarke was back in the studio cutting a solo album? Sadly the latter isn't true (unless someone knows different!), but I know which I'd prefer... |
Easy answer for me me which one I prefer but just because I would prefer an Allan Clarke solo album over a Clarke-less Hollies album doesn't mean that I'm not looking forward to the new album.
I agree that Allan's voice was a huge part of what made the Hollies famous, a friend of mine who doesn't listen to the Hollies very often but likes them said what made the Hollies outstanding was the voice of Allan Clarke. That was what put them above the rest. And that's a good point - without Clarke (not counting the Rickfors lineup which was equally great) the Hollies are a good but average band (let's see if my opinion changes after hearing the album).
But one shouldn't dismiss the the importance of the other members, the instruments and also to a large part the harmony vocals and of course the songwriting. And with the departure of Sylvester and Calvert all three got worse in my opinion.
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Yes, I have heard the new album, and I think it is fantastic. It is what The Hollies sound like now, in 2005/2006, and boy, do they sound good.
This new "Evolution" of the band has put together musically and vocally some great songs and what does it matter if none of the band have written them. The band have interpreted each song in the way that they feel about them and given them the life and vitality that they deserve. |
Because you have heard the album and like it you know for yourself that you are pleased with the new line-up in the studio and also live. But we who haven't heard the songs are allowed to voice doubts, aren't we?
And when it doesn't matter to you that they haven't written even one song on the album than it's OK but for others like me it matters.
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I have liked and appreciated all of the line ups so far and see no reason now for that to change.
If you don't like it, why do you spend so much time supposedly being a fan of a "tribute band" and wasting your time on this forum.
Put your records on and enjoy yourself.
I will too, with the new album as well as the previous ones.
You don't have to like the current Hollies, that is your choice, but please stop going on about it on this forum.
I for one am fed up with it as are many others who tend not to be so set in the past. |
I really can't see why that discussion annoys you so much - no one wants you to change your views about the current line up but I really don't see why we shouldn't write what we think. You don't have to take part in the discussion if you don't like it. Noone offends anybody by saying their opinions.
And isn't this forums about every period of the Hollies? You ask why we waste our time here when we are not fans of the new line up. The forum isn't only about the new line up. And just because one might dislike a special line up or album/song etc. it doesn't mean that he is no fan. Beeing a fan doesn't necesarily mean that you like everything the band does.
But that you want to forbid criticism on the forum is really selfish and inacceptable.
I enjoy posting on the forum but I don't want to be censored if I don't say what you like. |
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Dennis |
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I agree with Rob. It IS fantastic that The Hollies still exist today, and that we have a brand new album to look forward to. I have loved this band since I heard "I'm Alive" on Los Angeles radio in 1965. I bought the record, which was a big deal for me, as I only bought Beatles records up until then. Here it is, 40 years later, and this band is still at it. Those who bemoan the absence of Allan Clarke need to get over it. He retired because he lost his voice. He simply couldn't sing anymore. Do you get it now? I hope so. The point is that The Hollies have always been a BAND as opposed to "Allan Clarke & The Hollies". Frankly, I don't care for much of Clarke's solo work. So to say it's better to hear Allan solo than a Clarke-less Hollies is your choice, but a poor one in my opinion. There were those who complained when he left in '71, but The Hollies continued on and were better than ever. There is no reason why their new music with their new singer can't live up to The Hollies name. I say, let's hear the album first. The past, the present, and the future are equally valid. |
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hollies |
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Because you have heard the album and like it you know for yourself that you are pleased with the new line-up in the studio and also live. But we who haven't heard the songs are allowed to voice doubts, aren't we? |
Why post about having doubts before hearing something. Why be negative before the release. If you don't like something after hearing it, no problem.
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And when it doesn't matter to you that they haven't written even one song on the album than it's OK but for others like me it matters.
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The sound and performance is the important thing, not the song writing.
Yes, over the years, many members of the band have written songs that they have recorded, but without outside writers, the back catalogue would not be a fraction of what it is today. Can you imagine if they had not recorded "He Ain't Heavy", or The Air That I Breathe" or some of the greatest 60's classics. What is the difference now?
Why should anyone in the band feel obliged to write songs. It is very arrogant to criticise them because they have chosen songs written by others for this album.
For anyone who receives the Carousel Fanzine, the will be a special edition out in the next week or two and in it there will be an article about the recording of the album. In the article Ray Stiles explains about the songs and how they came about. It is interesting reading.
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I really can't see why that discussion annoys you so much - no one wants you to change your views about the current line up but I really don't see why we shouldn't write what we think. You don't have to take part in the discussion if you don't like it. |
I am not annoyed, I said I was fed up. I am fed up with the same arguments being brought up every few months with nothing new being added to the discussion.
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Noone offends anybody by saying their opinions. |
That is the problem. Some of the opinions expressed are offensive to some whether you like it or not.
How do you think The Hollies themselves feel about being labelled a tribute band. I can tell you, they find it extremely offensive.
And what about Ray Stiles. He's been with the band since 1986. Do you think he likes what you write about the bass playing.
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And isn't this forums about every period of the Hollies? You ask why we waste our time here when we are not fans of the new line up. The forum isn't only about the new line up. And just because one might dislike a special line up or album/song etc. it doesn't mean that he is no fan. Beeing a fan doesn't necesarily mean that you like everything the band does.
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Quite right. Every period of The Hollies includes the present and future. Just to be trivially cast off because a certain member of the band, whoever that may be, is no longer with them does not do justice to the rest of the band.
My question about wasting time was merely to say that why waste time talking about something you don't like when there is so much more to talk about that is good.
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But that you want to forbid criticism on the forum is really selfish and inacceptable.
I enjoy posting on the forum but I don't want to be censored if I don't say what you like. |
I don't want to forbid criticism on the forum at all. Constructive criticism is not a problem if the writer knows what he is talking about and does it in a proper respectful manner.
What I would like to stop is the unnecessary sniping at the remaining members of the band who chose to carry on with their profession and do what they love and enjoy doing. It is there right to do so and we should respect them and their decision.
It is not our choice but theirs so we should accept it and get on with enjoying this band and the music it produces whilst it still lasts. |
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_________________ Best wishes, Rob
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peterchecksfield |
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How do you think The Hollies themselves feel about being labelled a tribute band. I can tell you, they find it extremely offensive.
I wonder how Clarke feels about his contribution being downgraded so much on here? My point being, if we ONLY write what the band members (& ex-band members) themselves want to read, then this forum is pointless.
And what about Ray Stiles. He's been with the band since 1986. Do you think he likes what you write about the bass playing.
I personally haven't criticised the singing or musicianship of anyone, but having said that I think it's pretty fair to say that Ray Stiles never has been (& never will be) as innovative & adventurous as Eric or Bernie were. Also, it seems to me that the band themselves are more dismissive of post-Calvert/Silvester-era members. Poor Alan Coates was with the band longer than Graham & Terry put together, yet his departure didn't even warrant a press release. |
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peterchecksfield |
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Just out of curiosity, who actually OWNS the name 'The Hollies'? I know that both Eric's & Terry's bands have run into trouble in recent years for useing The Hollies' name, but if the name is owned jointly by both Bobby & Tony then surely that could potentially cause problems? |
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Tony Wilkinson |
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Rob knows where I stand on this ,as he has taken me to task on this subject before...
But, here goes, 'Emotions' is a pleasant song, pleasantly sung, but it ain't The Hollies in a million years..... |
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DistantLight |
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Quote: |
The sound and performance is the important thing, not the song writing.
Yes, over the years, many members of the band have written songs that they have recorded, but without outside writers, the back catalogue would not be a fraction of what it is today. Can you imagine if they had not recorded "He Ain't Heavy", or The Air That I Breathe" or some of the greatest 60's classics. What is the difference now?
Why should anyone in the band feel obliged to write songs. It is very arrogant to criticise them because they have chosen songs written by others for this album. |
OK, the sound and the performance are important - that's one thing but another thing is "originality" and you surely are not original when you "only(!!!)" play songs that others have written for you.
Of course you can bring a certain originality into covers as the Hollies have done on the Sing Dylan album or on songs like "He Ain't Heavy" but although they have recorded lots of songs by outside writers they have always (at least upto the 70s) written their own songs, too.
And as a musician you only have a real personality by writing and playing your own songs - that's my opinion.
And the two songs I've heard so far, a small part of "Hope" and on the BBC site "Emotions", are very commercial and totally "edgeless" but maybe they'll work in an album content. But an album full of songs like these won't be an album I will like.
And it is not a bit arrogant when I critisize them for not writing their own songs. I've just hoped that they might do so and I'm very disappointed that a band of this status doesn't write even parts of the material themselves. |
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Dennis |
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Location: Los Angeles
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As for songs supposedly not sounding like The Hollies, the same was said of the Rickfors period, especially tracks like "Words Don't Come Easy" and "Down River". What is wrong with a band changing styles? Many of the songs on "Romany" could be described as deep, dark, & moody. How many Clarke-sung tracks could be described like that? My point is, if the new music stands up to repeated plays, then it is valid. If it doesn't, well then I would deem the project a failure. Time will tell. Regarding dissing Allan Clarke on this board, I am not. I am merely pointing out that he was not the only member that mattered. This was the reason Clarke left in '71; friends kept telling him he WAS The Hollies, and he started to believe it. That is the danger with any band depending too much on its lead singer. There should be more of a balance within a band. Frankly, the last pictures I saw of Allan on stage with The Hollies were rather disturbing, with the gray ponytail and the goatee.... I agree with what Grace Slick said recently; she doesn't like seeing gray-haired old men up on stage playing rock and roll. I also saw a recent photo of Sky Saxon of the '60s garage band The Seeds, and he looked like Clarke did in his final appearances with The Hollies. I don't want to see rock performers letting themselves go like that. It spoils the image you have of them. |
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